Back when Taylor Sheridan was first putting together his hit Paramount show, Yellowstone, Josh Lucas wanted to play one the sons of Kevin Costner’s powerful and cutthroat Montana ranch owner, John Dutton. While Dutton’s sons carry a lot of their father in them, Lucas ended up getting a lot closer to the central character than that: He was cast as Dutton himself for a series of 1990s-era flashbacks.
The role took a while to take off, but Lucas, 51, can’t say he wasn’t warned. While filming the pilot in 2017, Sheridan told the actor that the role wouldn’t truly pay off until season 5. Indeed, he was just made four guest appearances in the first two seasons before completely disappearing in seasons 3 and 4, just as the show began to emerge as one of TV’s biggest properties, evidenced by the ever-growing Yellowstone Universe on what became Paramount +. And now, as promised Lucas is back as younger John Dutton is a critical (and more frequent) part of the arc, with the flashbacks starting to match up with what Dutton is facing in the present, as both men deal with dangerous threats to their ranch—both animal and human. Meanwhile, the real-life Lucas is dealing with another more welcome threat: jet lag. The busy actor currently flies back and forth between Montana and Los Angeles as he juggles two series roles, Yellowstone and the upcoming Apple TV+ comedy, Mrs. American Pie, with Kristen Wiig, Laura Dern, and Allison Janney.
As Yellowstone saddles up for its impending midseason finale, GQ grabbed coffee with Lucas to learn about finding his place on the series, dreaming of a 1993 spinoff, and writing letters to legendary directors.
You’ve already been in just as many episodes this season as you were in the first four combined. After a few years gone, what’s it like returning, in a bigger way, to an even bigger show?
When I signed on, I really wanted to play one of Kevin’s kids, and Taylor was clear, like, “No.” And so then it was a strange moment where I got this call, “Can you be in Utah tomorrow morning to play young John?” I remember so specifically, [Sheridan] said, “Look, there’s not going to be much for the first couple years, it’s really going to be more in season 5.” There hasn’t even been a pilot shot at that point, and I genuinely remember thinking, “This guy’s nuts!” Yellowstone was just a cool script, not an entity the way it is now.
What initially made you so invested in being cast as one of the Dutton kids? Was it the script, or just more of a general determination to work with Taylor?
Absolutely a Taylor thing. And this is pre-the mythology of Taylor. We were both actors who’ve been in this business for a long time, struggled in the highs and lows. I saw him as a contemporary, but I didn’t see him as such an authentic cowboy that—to use an obvious metaphor—would grab the reins of his career the way he did. I knew Sicario and Hell or High Water [which he wrote], and then, when I saw Wind River, I was like, “Oh, this guy’s an extraordinary talent.” I read Yellowstone, and not many times in my career have I felt such a sense of, “I really want to work for this guy and be around him.”
I also had a strong pull to the elements that Taylor’s dealing with. This is actually not something I’ve talked about, but, when I was a kid, we lived briefly on an Indian reservation. My dad was great friends with a Navajo chief, and part of the reason I’m named what I’m named is because of that experience. [His full name is Joshua Lucas Easy Dent Maurer.] I’d gone back there through my life, and so what he was doing in telling that story pulled me hard towards wanting to be a part of it. And then, bluntly, I was quite sad that I wasn’t for a number of years, and didn’t understand why, because I really loved the flashbacks; I think they’re really interesting.
Since you really wanted to play one of John’s sons, what was your the reaction when Taylor calls about taking on young John? Any hesitation?
When he said, “We’re going to do these flashbacks,” I immediately thought of— and it’s too heightened of a reference—but the whole idea that [Robert] De Niro didn’t try to play or look like [Marlon] Brando in Godfather II. So I said to Taylor, “I don’t look that much like him, but who cares?” I was thrilled to go do a scene and ride horses and just get to be there for a minute. But, what was interesting, I hadn’t seen the show, so, when he texted me earlier this year and said, “You’re coming back for season 5,” he didn’t say, “I told you,” but I remember thinking, “Like you told me!” And I was totally excited to go do it for many reasons—the success of the show being a part of it—but also, I was like, “I’ll sit down and study the show now, particularly what Kevin’s doing.” And I got bit, man. I would have to force myself to go to bed. And I started to feel a little bit of, I don’t want to say fear, but I was like, “Oh, fuck, this is a huge responsibility and you got to get it right.”
And I’ve tried to glean from Taylor, how is John different at this age? Is he harder? Is he so heartbroken about his wife that he’s cold? There’s elements of John Dutton that are Kevin Costner, but also very much Taylor. One of the cool things with Yellowstone is that Taylor does cowboy camp, which is pretty intense, and I was able to watch him and be like, “I think there’s stuff I want to take from him into John.” And I’m sure Kevin does that, too. But I definitely felt a daunting sense of responsibility. Even though the pieces are brief, they’re seminal, right? I would do the scenes, I’d walk away, and I wouldn’t be like “Yeah, I nailed that!” I’d feel like, “Fuck, I hope I got it.” [Laughs.]
Have you and Kevin ever directly chatted about the character?
No, we never did. I didn’t purposely stay away. We don’t work together, obviously, and I’ve had nothing but the nicest interactions with him. Kevin’s a really nice guy. I don’t know that John Dutton is, but I think Kevin is. [Laughs.] I think, maybe respectfully, he’s just always been like, you do your thing. So, sure, I would love to know that he’s happy with what I’m doing, but I also then have to kind of fall into the mindset of John Dutton, like, I don’t give a fuck.
You mentioned earlier that Taylor said from the beginning that season 5 would be when your role really picked up, but I have to imagine it’s hard to sit at home and bank on that.
I never did. To me, I’ve never gotten any Hollywood sense of Taylor, but that would just be Hollywood talk, and he’s not that guy. But I still didn’t—not that I never thought about it again. I always was like, “I wish I was doing more on that show,” because I genuinely loved making it in the beginning and I had known how successful it was. It took seeing it for me to get even more like, “Wow, that is something that I would really love to be a part of.”
Did you ever ask Taylor what the big difference is between who John is in the period you’re playing him and when Kevin is inhabiting the character?
He said one thing. I was like, “Is he lonely?” He said, “He’s too fucking busy to be lonely!” And the way he said it made me think, “Is he talking about John Dutton or Taylor Sheridan?” [Laughs.] Again, I don’t need to build up the mythology of Taylor, but how the fuck is that guy doing what he’s doing? He is a one-man band. He controls…and I mean control in a good way. An example would be the day I started shooting this season, I heard the director, Christina [Alexandra Voros], call Taylor and be like, “He’s wearing chaps, right?” And Taylor was like, “No, he’s not fucking wearing chaps!” And she was like, “No, no, no, Taylor, I’m not talking about the scene in the governor’s office, I’m talking about on the horse. So he takes them off, correct?” And he’s like, “Yeah!” To me, the fact that he’s dealing with the costumes at that level, on a specific day-to-day basis of what, nine shows now, and that all of it is in his brain, I have nothing but mad respect for it.
What’s the production side of things been like for you this year? Because you’ll be in one scene this episode, and then maybe two scenes the next week, and then maybe zero in the episode after that. Are you going back and forth, or knocking out a chunk of flashbacks all at once?
I’m going back and forth. One of the things that’s been strange for me is that, at the same time, I had gotten cast as one of the leads of this new show called Mrs. American Pie.
With a truly insane cast.
It’s the highest level, like one legendary cast member after another. That was my primary job, and so I was in this really weird situation. I was like, “Well, if Taylor can write nine TV shows and produce and direct all of it, I can do two.” [Laughs.] Friday night, I’d wrap in LA and jump on a plane [to Missoula, Montana], and they would work around me a little bit, like, “Okay, we’re going to shoot one John Dutton flashback day on Saturday, and then Josh goes back.” But the problem actually was not Yellowstone or Mrs. American Pie, in terms of the scheduling, it was the fires and the floods. At one point [in Montana] we got this text to stay in our trailers because there’s grizzly bears all over base camp, because they were fleeing the fires. And that’s kind of the Yellowstone world: It’s raw, powerful, and always this tinge of violent possibilities to it.
Unlike your previous appearances, it feels like the flashbacks this season are much more directly tied to everything else. When you’re filming your stuff, how cognizant are you of what’s playing out in the present?
I am, and I’m trying to not reference it, but you’re building towards something without giving anything away. I also don’t know either, from script to script. This season, he reintroduced the character in smart dramatic ways, and now there’s a story that’s starting to be built in episode 5, that gets way stronger in episode 6, way stronger in 7, and way stronger in 8, which is an incredibly seminal story of John and Rip and Beth, and that whole dynamic of why they are who they are, based on what happened to them—and between them—20 years earlier. So much of Yellowstone is a slow burn, and I think he’s really building towards a deeply powerful climax halfway through the season. Again, I don’t know. I honestly don’t even know if I’ll go back for the second half. I don’t know that anyone knows—except for Taylor.
Have you noticed the glowing reaction to your growing presence on the show? Ahead of talking to you, I searched, “Josh Lucas Yellowstone,” and there were tons of stories calling for you to lead your own spinoff. Has all that positivity reached you?
Without a doubt. I mean, I feel it in the streets. I felt it in the airport last night. It’s pretty palpable right now. I was talking with Luke [Grimes], and he said one of the things that is difficult about the show for him is that TV fame is particularly different from movie fame, because you’re in someone’s home every week and they feel like they know you. But what they know is the character, and they have such an identity with that character. And I can feel that suddenly happening to me like it’s never happened before. I can see how hard it is for those guys, where people love these characters, and worry for them, and pray for them. I heard so many women be like, “I want to be like Beth, I’m like Beth,” and you’re like, “Okay, is that a selling point?” [Laughs.] But they want that love, they want that passion.
We’ve had the 1883 prequel series, we’re about to get 1923, so, in the back of your head, are you like, “Huh, 1993, maybe?”
Someone sent me this fantastic 1993 poster that they had made, and I was like, “We can only dream, right?” First of all, I would do it in a nanosecond, but I just can’t imagine that Taylor has the time. So part of it is, where is his focus going to go, and where’s the story? So, yes, I literally would drop anything to do it. And it’s not so much because of the success of the show; it’s because the writing is so fascinating, because I find the character and this world so fascinating.
Pivoting back to Mrs. American Pie, which stars Kristen Wiig, Carol Burnett…
Bruce Dern, Laura Dern, Allison Janney. It’s just bonkers.
What was it like being in that company?
I shouldn’t say this, but someone said to me, “You’re the only one who hasn’t won an Oscar.” Or been nominated or whatever. I was like, “Thanks a lot.” [Laughs.] But it was legendary comedic power bringing their fucking A-game to this thing [that] I’m calling the Game of Thrones of comedy. If you look at Game of Thrones, it’s just so kaleidoscopic, so many stories and themes all going on. But, imagine if it was a comedy, set in Miami in 1968. There’s politics, it’s terrifically comedic, but also Apple poured mind-boggling amounts of money into the production and design. It’s easily one of the most beautiful shows I’ve ever been on. And then, to be doing things with Carol Burnett, I keep wanting to use the word responsibility, but you feel like you better show up at your absolute top, and I felt like everyone was doing that. I think it could be a groundbreaking comedic television show.
I admittedly got very excited when I saw that you’re making an action-thriller called Blood for Dust. Between the plot and the presence of Scoot McNairy, I was instantly in.
Coincidentally, it moved to Montana. It’s the underbelly of America in the 1990s, post-Reagan, when the divide between classes really started to separate and it became really fucking hard to make a living as a middle-class person in this country. So that’s the sort of underlying theme of the movie, and from there, it’s a thriller. An average, ordinary Joe gets involved with a serious drug dealer. But I think it’s more layered than usual; it’s not attempting to be a shoot ‘em up thriller.
I also have to ask you about your upcoming killer-shark movie, The Black Demon. Though as someone terrified of killer water creatures, I’m gonna need you to give me the non-scary pitch for that one.
Black Demon is a true legend. In Baja, Mexico, for 100-plus years, there’s been a legend about a megalodon shark. So, it’s a shark movie, but with really serious filmmaking to try and tell a shark story in a cool, artful way. It has themes of environmental issues. It’s partly based on what this American company has done by building an oil rig down in Baja, and the way that they did that has angered this god, and this god has unleashed this demon shark.
With “shark movie” now checked off the career bucket list, what’s left that you’d like to get the chance to do?
I have directors that I really want to work with. Obviously, the ultimate is Tarantino. Spielberg and Tarantino. A couple times in my life I’ve written directors letters, like, “Look, I don’t really care what it is, or what the size of it is, I want to be a part of this thing you’re doing, whatever it may be.” One of them was Clint Eastwood [and that led to doing J. Edgar] with him. Some people say to be careful meeting your idols, but I’ve had quite the opposite, where I loved working with these people. I loved working for Ron Howard [in A Beautiful Mind]. I loved working with Sean Penn [in The Weight of Water].
Tarantino recently revealed that his next project is a limited series, so get that pen ready!
I wrote to him already—he ignored me! [Laughs.]